williamlobdell.com

9 responses so far ↓

• 1 Jumper2 // May 20, 2009 at 7:04 pm

  Right!

  Because us “Christian friends” have just never cared about what the Bible said or “just haven’t read it”

  Whatever! It is completely insulting to think that these aren’t questions that have not been looked at, studied and understood. Of couse, not everybody has studied everything because the Bible is rather full, quite a bit of info you know. And of course people differ on their interpretation as well.

  I can’t go over all of this so I’ll just start with the first issue! First of all the fourth commmandment does not say what the video says it does. Exodus 31:15 is not even where the commandments are listed! 31:15 is about the tabernacle and how to not get so involved with the tabernacle or use it as an excuse to break the sabbath! It was a strict guideline, obviously very strict. I don’t know enough to defend why death was a punishment for even that, but it does not apply to anybody today because there is no tabernacle to build. So the idea that we have to kill everybody that works at Walmart is completely ridiculous. I can’t help but think that the author of the video knows that he is completely misrepresenting the commandment?
  Perhaps one reason is that the nation of Israel was so new and so fragile at that point that starting to worship the tabernacle (a huge risk) would just create another idol to worship rather than worshipping God. If they worshipped this tabernacle, how would they be any different than the others that worshipped lesser gods?

• 2 Mithridates // May 20, 2009 at 10:55 pm

  Sure. The Bible was written by people and Biblical literalism even within Christianity should be discouraged. Christianity was probably at its best during the first few centuries where there was no standard approved NT to follow and rather people were writing their own content – gospels and letters and whatnot. Writing one’s own content seemed to be a keystone of early Christianity, and losing that is a bit of a pity IMO.

  As for the Old Testament quotes, well there were some early thinkers that concluded that the OT needed to be completely thrown out instead of kept as a kind of reference that modern Christianity view it as:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion

  But Marcion’s school of Christianity lost the battle for influence so the OT still exists in Christianity.

• 3 Tim Stroud // May 21, 2009 at 1:45 am

  William, is there a reason that you are leaving out your Jewish friends on this one?

  Just asking.

• 4 newanalog // May 21, 2009 at 2:01 am

  Most of this is from the Old Testament and was meant for the Israelites BEFORE Christ came. The punishments were so strict because God claimed the Israelites as his chosen people. Since God is perfect, he can’t allow imperfection in something that he has claimed as his own. The commandments were to show the Israelites (and us) just how high the standard is. It was painfully obvious that no man could reach it. What does that say about God? Who sets their standard for a relationship with them that high? Only someone who is perfect. The cost was high…death, no matter what. But notice the commandments themselves don’t say anything about death as a punishment. Though death was the cost for breaking any one of them, it didn’t have to be the death of the perpetrator in every case. Some offenses called for the death of an animal, such as a perfect lamb, as a substitute for the perpetrator’s death. Why the distinction? I don’t know, but it doesn’t matter. The point of the commandments shows us two things — there is a RIGHT and a WRONG — and we aren’t capable of being on the RIGHT side and so, someone/something has to die.

  God loves everyone. He wants everyone to love him back and to be with him, but no one is good enough. Add something imperfect (us) to something perfect (God) and you ruin what was perfect. We aren’t capable of keeping his law, so we are imperfect and can’t belong to him without dying, but that defeats the point. That is where Christ comes in. He died in our place. He takes the place of the perfect lamb. He is God in human form. And since he is worth much more than a lamb, he is able to take our place as well.

  We can’t imagine how God can be 3 things at once, but he can somehow. I don’t understand how, but then again I don’t understand quantum mechanics. Maybe one day I will. I only know that because of that very special “ability”, he was able to send Jesus (himself) to live and die in our place. Even though it was unimaginably painful. He loves us and wants us to be able to chose to love him back so much, that he felt it was worth the price.

  Jesus said he didn’t come to replace the law. That is true. He said he came to fulfill the law. He gives us the new command to love. If we follow this, then the other 10 commands are covered. He said if we confess that we are sinners, accept his death as a substitute for ours, and commit to follow him (and so, this command to love), then we can consider our debt for sin to be paid by him and we will be with him in heaven. He said he will take care of the rest, and he will change our attitudes and hearts by leaving the Holy Spirit (the third part of God) with us until he returns to gather us back up to be with him.

  That’s the gospel in a nutshell. There is no doubt that Jesus was a real person and that he said these things. That is just history. Either you believe he was who he said he was, or you don’t. If he is what he said, then he is certainly good and loving. So why not follow him if you believe him?

  I know that not everyone who says that they are followers are really followers. Some just say it even though they have never truly given their life to Christ. And if someone truly is following Christ, it doesn’t mean they will never sin. It does mean however that when the recognize sin in their lives, it will break their hearts and they will repent and fall back in line. If someone claims they are a Christian and does not feel remorse and repent for their sin, then they are not a Christian and you shouldn’t be basing your view of Christians by them in the first place. These are the majority and they lead many people down the path a path of bitterness and resentment for Christians as a whole.

  About the whole cutting off your hands/eyes thing…that’s a metaphor. For example, if you keep lusting after women because you can’t keep away from porn sites on your computer…get rid of your computer. Basically, keep out of situations that are likely to cause you (or others) to sin.

• 5 MiDu // May 21, 2009 at 11:48 am

  In comments here, I see points that are often made by bible apologists, over and over again until they seem completely meaningless.

  In a nutshell:

  1) biblical literalism is not practiced by “true christians” (or visa versa) how often do we get to see this gem tossed back and forth?

  2) Nit-picky little analysis of word smithing and “true” meaning (from translated text!) – which is often a result from extreme literalism.

  3) Its a metaphor! (only when convenient or when a passage is hard to explain)

  4) “There is no doubt Jesus was real” I love this little nugget. There are christian historians who certainly believe this because for them “the gospel is truth”. However most practicing historians who discard this bias have yet to find a contemporary mention of this man from the period from which he is supposed to live. This is not remarkable, especially if the legend of Jesus grew over time, and therefore his attributed deeds were created whole cloth from fiction in order to boost the influence of this growing cult.
  There is considerable doubt about existence of Jesus, and it is disingenuous to state otherwise.

  5) What about the Jews (or muslims) – or “lets change the subject”

  The text of these books is clearly a human creation. Riddled with prejudice, petulance, and evil – you can also find nuggets of wisdom and kindness. However it is nothing more than an old book with an interesting glimpse into the views and lives of the ancient people of the Middle East. It has no place in modern society.

• 6 Tim Stroud // May 21, 2009 at 2:19 pm

  Yeah exactly MiDu!

  Mostly.

  Except, nuggets of wisdom and kindness from ancient Jewish text have nothing to do with modern Jews so Lobdell only directed the question to his Christian friends (you mean that’s not weird?), and besides nuggets of wisdom and kindness do not have a place in modern society.

  Huh?

• 7 MiDu // May 21, 2009 at 9:50 pm

  Tim,

  I’m glad you agree with many of my points. Regarding the question of your jewish brethren: These same points and questions apply to their texts (muslims too) and more and more people are seeing the destructiveness of their influence.

  I can’s speak for Lobdell, but he comes from the christian tradition and It is certainly not unusual to send your sharpest questions to those you know.

  Finally, on wisdom and kindness in the bible: This ancient book has far too much influence on far too many people. With modern thinking, free people, it is mostly irrelevant. Its parables are mostly silly, and when you sift away the reprehensible passages its lessons are obvious and trite. It is gratifying to see the slow march of progress in this information age, as people lift the veil of dogma and ignorance from their eyes.

  This world can be magnificent and mysterious, and it can be cruel and ugly. It is better to see this with open eyes – the bible does not offer a viable path through it.

• 8 SQUINT // May 23, 2009 at 2:33 pm

  SQUINT ponders purpose of finite existence?!

  No grok man Gods.

  Wetware defective? Cannot feel jesus.

  Ponders Universe – Spooky enough its tiniest parts. Existence infinite at C.

  LHC will open doors…

• 9 Jumper2 // May 29, 2009 at 10:39 pm

  MiDu,
  No offense but if you think that the parables are reprehensible, obvious and trite then you really don’t understand them.

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